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Comments on: IF and Indie Aesthetics in Games http://writerresponsetheory.org/wordpress/2005/09/14/if-and-indie-aesthetics-in-games/ a blog and podcast dedicated to discussing text arts forms Wed, 13 Dec 2017 18:58:39 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.2 en Writer Response Theory 2004-2005 wrt@writerresponsetheory.org (Writer Response Theory) wrt@writerresponsetheory.org Talk Radio Comment-cast: IF and Indie Aesthetics in Games Comment-cast: IF and Indie Aesthetics in Games Writer Response Theory Writer Response Theory wrt@writerresponsetheory.org http://writerresponsetheory.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/iTWRT.JPG WRT: Writer Response Theory http://writerresponsetheory.org/wordpress 144 144 by: Jeremy Douglass http://writerresponsetheory.org/wordpress/2005/09/14/if-and-indie-aesthetics-in-games/#comment-592 Fri, 28 Oct 2005 23:10:15 +0000 http://writerresponsetheory.org/wordpress/2005/09/14/if-and-indie-aesthetics-in-games/#comment-592 (By IL do you mean Interactive Literature?) Interesting comparison to fan fic - there is acuatlly a fair amount of fan fic and slash that I've seen written using the <a href="http://adrift.org.uk/" rel="nofollow">ADRIFT: Adventure Development &#38; Runner - Interactive Fiction Toolkit</a>, which provides a graphical IDE for rapid prototyping. There are a lot of art cultures out there that have a "high artist-to-consumer ratio" - perhaps the one thing that they all have in common is that they tend to be difficult to capitalize based on the broadcast model, and in some ways work more like craft - if you want to make money off of scrapbooking, you don't publish scrapbooks, you sell materials.... Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/writerresponse/writerresponsetheory.org/wordpress/wp-includes/functions-formatting.php on line 76

(By IL do you mean Interactive Literature?)

Interesting comparison to fan fic - there is acuatlly a fair amount of fan fic and slash that I’ve seen written using the ADRIFT: Adventure Development & Runner - Interactive Fiction Toolkit, which provides a graphical IDE for rapid prototyping. There are a lot of art cultures out there that have a “high artist-to-consumer ratio” - perhaps the one thing that they all have in common is that they tend to be difficult to capitalize based on the broadcast model, and in some ways work more like craft - if you want to make money off of scrapbooking, you don’t publish scrapbooks, you sell materials….

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Jeremy Douglass (By IL do you mean Interactive Literature?) Interesting comparison to fan fic - there is acuatlly a fair amount of fan ... (By IL do you mean Interactive Literature?) Interesting comparison to fan fic - there is acuatlly a fair amount of fan ...
by: Benjamin M. Barden http://writerresponsetheory.org/wordpress/2005/09/14/if-and-indie-aesthetics-in-games/#comment-588 Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:28:12 +0000 http://writerresponsetheory.org/wordpress/2005/09/14/if-and-indie-aesthetics-in-games/#comment-588 Correction: In fic, there are definate sections where the authors outnumber the non-authors, but in retrospect, those sections aren't anything like the whole thing. Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/writerresponse/writerresponsetheory.org/wordpress/wp-includes/functions-formatting.php on line 76

Correction: In fic, there are definate sections where the authors outnumber the non-authors, but in retrospect, those sections aren’t anything like the whole thing.

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Benjamin M. Barden Correction: In fic, there are definate sections where the authors outnumber the non-authors, but in retrospect, those sections aren't anything ... Correction: In fic, there are definate sections where the authors outnumber the non-authors, but in retrospect, those sections aren't anything ...
by: Benjamin M. Barden http://writerresponsetheory.org/wordpress/2005/09/14/if-and-indie-aesthetics-in-games/#comment-587 Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:26:13 +0000 http://writerresponsetheory.org/wordpress/2005/09/14/if-and-indie-aesthetics-in-games/#comment-587 Coalition-building is always an interesting exercise, but I'd suggest you first ask yourself if a coalition is in your interests, and then ask yourself if a coalition interests you. IL, culturally, is a lot more like fanfic/amateur fiction than gaming. (those two are essentially one culture, with many individual fanfic authors who strive to write or actually write original fic, and have next to no change in readership) It has a high artist-to-user ratio (in fic, it gets to the point that there are probably more artist-users than pure users, at least of people who are in the subculture for any length of time.) The technologies are fairly static. The high-quality innovations tend to be literary or psychological, and are not trivial to build on or even to duplicate. Honestly, from an outsider's perspective, the shape that IL has is the shape that it wants to have. The only improvement that I could see would be in getting the word out - it is still very small, and there are many people who would fit right in and enjoy themselves immensely, but who have no idea that IL is even out there. My thought is, though, that these people are not gamers. They would tend to be literary, problem-solving types. Anyone who played Myst would be a decent candidate, even though Myst was at least half about the eye candy. Tycho (but not Gabe) of Penny Arcade might be interested (if he was, that would be a partial solution to the "get the word out" thing all by itself.) Your best bet for eyeballs might actually be through livejournal. As for design revolutions, they're Nintendo's stock in trade, and they seem to be doing pretty well for themselves. The trick isn't whether design revolutions will sell (they will, if you get the right ones) but whether *your* design revolution will sell. hokay. out of juice. Ben Barden Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/writerresponse/writerresponsetheory.org/wordpress/wp-includes/functions-formatting.php on line 76

Coalition-building is always an interesting exercise, but I’d suggest you first ask yourself if a coalition is in your interests, and then ask yourself if a coalition interests you. IL, culturally, is a lot more like fanfic/amateur fiction than gaming. (those two are essentially one culture, with many individual fanfic authors who strive to write or actually write original fic, and have next to no change in readership) It has a high artist-to-user ratio (in fic, it gets to the point that there are probably more artist-users than pure users, at least of people who are in the subculture for any length of time.) The technologies are fairly static. The high-quality innovations tend to be literary or psychological, and are not trivial to build on or even to duplicate.

Honestly, from an outsider’s perspective, the shape that IL has is the shape that it wants to have. The only improvement that I could see would be in getting the word out - it is still very small, and there are many people who would fit right in and enjoy themselves immensely, but who have no idea that IL is even out there.

My thought is, though, that these people are not gamers. They would tend to be literary, problem-solving types. Anyone who played Myst would be a decent candidate, even though Myst was at least half about the eye candy. Tycho (but not Gabe) of Penny Arcade might be interested (if he was, that would be a partial solution to the “get the word out” thing all by itself.) Your best bet for eyeballs might actually be through livejournal.

As for design revolutions, they’re Nintendo’s stock in trade, and they seem to be doing pretty well for themselves. The trick isn’t whether design revolutions will sell (they will, if you get the right ones) but whether *your* design revolution will sell.

hokay. out of juice.

Ben Barden

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Benjamin M. Barden Coalition-building is always an interesting exercise, but I'd suggest you first ask yourself if a coalition is in your interests, ... Coalition-building is always an interesting exercise, but I'd suggest you first ask yourself if a coalition is in your interests, ...
by: Jeremy Douglass http://writerresponsetheory.org/wordpress/2005/09/14/if-and-indie-aesthetics-in-games/#comment-566 Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:24:59 +0000 http://writerresponsetheory.org/wordpress/2005/09/14/if-and-indie-aesthetics-in-games/#comment-566 Good to see you here Ben! I think you are right in pointing out that his manifestos are directed at a specific subculture. Maybe I'm in a mode where I'm wondering if we could do a bit more coalition building. But really, it might be good to ask what the goal for his subculture is. There seem to be two goals - one is more creative excitement and less living like drones, for the developers. The other is more choice and better product, for the gamers. Chasing the first might successfully drive the second. However it is an open question whether a revolution in game design will change gamer taste - that is, sell well. Many, many media content industries have attempted design revolutions and discovered that people will respect them, but not actually buy anything if it doesn't match the drapes. Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/writerresponse/writerresponsetheory.org/wordpress/wp-includes/functions-formatting.php on line 76

Good to see you here Ben!

I think you are right in pointing out that his manifestos are directed at a specific subculture. Maybe I’m in a mode where I’m wondering if we could do a bit more coalition building.

But really, it might be good to ask what the goal for his subculture is. There seem to be two goals - one is more creative excitement and less living like drones, for the developers. The other is more choice and better product, for the gamers. Chasing the first might successfully drive the second. However it is an open question whether a revolution in game design will change gamer taste - that is, sell well. Many, many media content industries have attempted design revolutions and discovered that people will respect them, but not actually buy anything if it doesn’t match the drapes.

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Jeremy Douglass Good to see you here Ben! I think you are right in pointing out that his manifestos are directed at a ... Good to see you here Ben! I think you are right in pointing out that his manifestos are directed at a ...
by: Benjamin M. Barden http://writerresponsetheory.org/wordpress/2005/09/14/if-and-indie-aesthetics-in-games/#comment-488 Sat, 01 Oct 2005 16:16:32 +0000 http://writerresponsetheory.org/wordpress/2005/09/14/if-and-indie-aesthetics-in-games/#comment-488 thoughts... - It may be that he isn't taking IF into account because it simply doesn't occur to him. I didn't realize it was out there at all until you pointed it out to me, and I try to stay at least a little abreast of gaming news. The roguelike games qualify as pretty indie as well, and they're definately games. I also noticed an occasion when Costikayan seemed to (and perhaps did) totally ignore the existence of small shareware production houses like Ambrosia and Spiderweb. I cannot say for certain, but I think he is talking not so much about Games as about Gamers. The subculture that he loves and is a part of has no strong indie aesthetic, and that is what troubles him. It is the way of the world that the health of those subcultures that you are not associated with cause you no concern. The internet is like an enormous castle composed entirely of secret passages. You can live cheek-to-jowl with someone and never realize that they exist. Of course, this lends itself less to literary geeking, and more to psych, but.... Ben Barden Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/writerresponse/writerresponsetheory.org/wordpress/wp-includes/functions-formatting.php on line 76

thoughts…
- It may be that he isn’t taking IF into account because it simply doesn’t occur to him. I didn’t realize it was out there at all until you pointed it out to me, and I try to stay at least a little abreast of gaming news. The roguelike games qualify as pretty indie as well, and they’re definately games. I also noticed an occasion when Costikayan seemed to (and perhaps did) totally ignore the existence of small shareware production houses like Ambrosia and Spiderweb. I cannot say for certain, but I think he is talking not so much about Games as about Gamers. The subculture that he loves and is a part of has no strong indie aesthetic, and that is what troubles him. It is the way of the world that the health of those subcultures that you are not associated with cause you no concern.

The internet is like an enormous castle composed entirely of secret passages. You can live cheek-to-jowl with someone and never realize that they exist.

Of course, this lends itself less to literary geeking, and more to psych, but….

Ben Barden

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Benjamin M. Barden thoughts... - It may be that he isn't taking IF into account because it simply doesn't occur to him. I ... thoughts... - It may be that he isn't taking IF into account because it simply doesn't occur to him. I ...